Waymon Hudson

Shower Scare from Anti-Trans Group

Filed By Waymon Hudson | January 16, 2008 10:49 AM | comments

Filed in: Living, Transgender & Intersex
Tags: Concerned Women for America, Family Research Council, Maryland, nondiscrimination, transgender

PhotobucketIn response to a recently passed act banning "discrimination in housing, employment, public accommodations, cable television service, and taxicab service on the basis of gender identity" in Montgomery County, Maryland, the group Citizens for a Responsible Government has started a petition drive to overturn the bill.

Not so surprising. These repeal efforts and threats are unfortunately commonplace as we make these very important municipal advances for our community.

What is surprising (and made me almost smash my computer screen) is the name of their movement and website:

Not My Shower.net. Seriously.

But the most inflammatory rhetoric is after the jump...

The website and group was brought to my attention by my sister who lives in Maryland. She got a pre-recorded call that read this (from the website):

"No longer will women and girls be able to feel completely safe in the most private and personal bathroom and locker facilities of schools, public pools, malls, stores, health clubs, restaurants and other such public places throughout the county."

Really? Some transperson is going into your daughter's shower to ogle her? The opposite is actually true. The reason why they passed these protections is because the people who feel most unsafe and under constant scrutiny in those facilities are the trans-people, not these ubiquitous "women and girls." But that would be logical, not the complete fear-mongering which this group does in spades.

The string of misinformation and scare tactics continues:

"the outrageous legislation may result in forcing even religious schools to hire transgender teachers; and then also allow cross-dressing but biological males in your daughter's school locker room."

This is some of the most in-your-face, violence inducing language that I've seen from a campaign since Anita Bryant. Why not just paint targets on members of our community by calling them pedophiles and predators? In my view, this kind of "save the children" talk could easily lead to violence against transgender people.

I know the "which bathroom will they use" issue always comes up when people argue against trans-protections. It's usually a bit more subtle, though. This type of blatant attack is completely vile and without any support or merit.

Besides the scare tactics, the complete breadth of misinformation is staggering. But when you poke around the website, it starts to become clear who is really behind this effort.

Both the Family Research Council (the group who is anti-everyone that is not a White Christian Supremacists) and the Concerned Women for America (a long-time foe of anyone not June Cleaver) are quoted and cited on the pages. Their "guide to petition drives in churches" and "the constitutional rights of pastors" links appear various times throughout the site.

Considering the sources, maybe I'm not so surprised by the "Not My Shower" slogan.

I am, however, deeply disturbed. Anyone who says we don't need to extend protections to the transgender community needs only to look at this website to see the campaigns of hate we all have to face as community.

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While you might object to the language there are women's spaces where Pre-Ops don't belong and
a ladies locker room is one such place.

I was surprised to see this on Marti's site and not reposted here.

As both a member of the female half of society and
a former the TG/TS communities i could not imagine
ever setting foot into a women's locker room
with male genitals. To do so is such an in your face act and boldly offensive in my opinion.

we don't dwell on bathroom issues here, which i find a relief from certain "activists" who are obsessed with the bathroom. with that said there is an unwritten code of conduct for transwomen when it comes to their place in women's spaces.

Transwomen are allowed in those spaces on the condition they behave in accordance with the customs women abide by in those spaces. If they cannot abide by those customs then they are ether outed or asked to leave. Nearly all Pre-Ops and TG 's know better then to enter a women's locker room they usually make suitable accommodations and avoid that women's space until they are Post-Op and legally female.

A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story.

Take care


I didn't see it on Marti's site I saw it somewhere else....


That phrase "Not my shower" is so uber-possessive.

Like, "my" apparently can be anyone except for a trans-person. Everyone's allowed to own property except trans-people.

There's a reason this sounds so much like Nativist rhetoric, like take back "our" nation, from those awful minorities and immigrants - it's all about letting people know who's in charge and has nothing to do with protecting people.

The most telling part is the "forced to hire" bit - I doubt this legislation forces anyone to hire anyone else, it just prevents firing and prevents hiring discrimination. But the way they see it, trans (and gays, and lesbians, and, and, and, we're all in this boat together) shouldn't be hired. At all. Because they/we don't have a place at the table.

They oughtta just straight up defend starvation and poverty. It'd be tons more honest.

"it's all about letting people know who's in charge and has nothing to do with protecting people."

Exactly, Alex. The "my" shower and the rest of the misinformation in the page just shows the deep sense of superiority and self-righteousness these folks have.

"A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story."


As you know, we have very different views on this issue. I actually think gender is self-identified, not defined by genitalia. Is someone who has not yet fully physically transitioned less of a woman than someone who has? I personally don't think so.

I respect you views on the subject, but think that this kind of black and whiten definition of gender is a huge source of the problems our community faces.

Besides, the actual ordinance passed is broadly inclusive (I'm not sure I've ever seen taxi's in a non-discrimination policy). For the group to use fear mongering, misinformation, and scare tactics is what is truly repulsive to me.



Alex the Real issue is the Locker Room

Pre-Ops don't belong there.

Take care

"...and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story."

Really Sue? What about those of us who can't afford surgery? Are you defining us as men too? Note that I'm not saying transwomen who are pre-op shouldn't use common sense in these situations, but you seem to be using a much broader brush than I'm comfortable with.

You can think what you want regarding gender but we are talking about physical sex
Gender is the straw man in this discussion.

Gender is between your ears but what you have in your pants is all about sex, not gender.

The ordinance needs to be repealed or revised.

Take care

I agree, Rebecca. Those kind of broad strokes are a huge part of what many of us are fighting against. Limiting definitions such as “the genitals make the man” are a large part of why there need to be protections like this ordinance passed.


I have to ask you how is it possible for someone in a woman's locker room to tell the difference between a man who is pervert or worse yet shopping for a rape victim from a Pre-Op TS?

How are women in that locker room suppose to know the difference?
How are suppose to be insured that locker room is safe if someone with male genitals is let in?

I know first hand that safety is an important issue for transfolk having lived as a paleo-TG person. However my old school thinking tells me both borne and post-transition females have the right to safety as transfolk do.

Take care


It is unfortunate that you would discriminate against those who may not have the ability or means to make their outside "sex", as you call it, match their gender. I guess they are just out of luck, in your view.

I just don't agree with you on this.

It is unfortunate that you would take such a caviler attitude toward the safety of women.

Take care

Pardon me Waymon
DON'T put words in my mouth..
I used the phrase physical sex Not outside sex.

Oh well.
I should have expected this ...
Shame on me.



I think women's safety is extremely important. But I also think that painting transpeople as predators, as this group clearly does, is dangerous and wrong.

And you did say "physical sex", I apologize.

What I don't hear you answering is what people that don't have the means to make their "physical sex" completely match their gender are supposed to do. Should they not be allowed to use public accommodations because they might not have the money to fully transition? Should they be discriminated against for that?

I personally don't think so.

I'm non-op and use female facilities. It doesn't take much effort to hide my genitals and do my business of changing into my workout gear.

Its also important to note that its not always genitals that people are object too. Women who are too butch will likely be at risk too. And even if you had genital surgery that doesn't change your height, shoulders, etc which are other factors that people utilize to ascertain people's gender.

I don't consider a locker room in a private business "public accommodation"

One fact that the TG community likes to ignore is that of the all the people who truly want surgery more then half of them find a way to have it.

Take for example a disabled, partially sighted tramswoman who was able to find a part time job and save for her surgery. That was Me by the way...
I live well below the poverty line even with my simi part time job and, i could make it happen.
If it is something a transwoman really wants she can eat a lot of rice and beans and use cheap makeup in order to save the money to have the surgery.

If you could find a way to sort out the perverts from the Pre-Ops i would be all for allowing them into that woman's space.

One last comment....
The people i usually find yelling the loudest abut this are Non-Ops.

Maybe what we really need are three locker rooms
and single use.

Take care

Thanks, Emilia!

You bring up a great point. These protections are not just for transgender people. They also protect people who are outside of the “gender-norm” (whatever that may be…), like masculine women or feminine men.

Thanks for joining the discussion. :)

HI Emilia

Your right it's not always about genitals.
One thing most people fail to realize that will tip them off to the sex of a person is how they smell.
HRT has a way of masking that thankfully.

I might add that here in The People's Republic of Kalifornia and in Texas where i use to live tall women (over 6', 2") may be rare but they are not uncommon. When i lived in San Antonio there was a mixed race woman who shopped at the same HEB i did. This woman was 6', 5" almost two hands higher then my best friend.

While we are on this subject the other issue that needs to be brought up is people like you and I who can travel freely in and out of woman's spaces like this usually make an effort to socialize as women. This makes a huge difference and is why some of us have trouble in mainstream society. My best friend and mentor for many years is a pre-op who is 6', 2" she been living and working full time since 96. she is physically larger in every way than i am, she does a good job of punching holes in the size arguments. Granted if you are around five and a half feet and don't have a lot of testosterone damage (male secondary sex traits) you will do better, size isn't as important as presentation.


I think it's great that you were able to save for your surgery, but some people may not be able to. When you say "more than half find a way", where does that leave the rest of the people? And even if they are working towards that goal, what do they do in the meantime?

I also think if you are right. If we could separate the "perverts" or any other criminal element out from situations, it would make everything easier. But that's not reality. There are bad elements that cannot be separated out from every situation. Predators don't come with signs or ID cards. But we shouldn’t punish a whole group of people because of that possibility.

And this “Not My Shower” group is implying that all transgender people are predators. That is scapegoating and fearmonmgering.

I am actually with you on the singe use thing. I think it would be much better and safer for everyone if all restrooms/changing rooms, etc were all single use facilities. I’m not so much for having the “men, women, and single-use” as to me that might imply that “single-use” means “other”. I have started to see more “family” restrooms available as an option, which might help with the issue.


You keep on talking about safety, safety, safety, Sue, but what sort of abnormally high risk do pre/non-op TS people pose?

I think that when we all just learn to grow up a little around these issues and stop obsessing over bathroom and locker rooms, we'll learn that the real issues here, like employment, discrimination, and poverty, are what actually pose a danger to people.

I agree on single-use stalls of course...as are, I might add, pretty much every single ladies room stall I've ever seen. Frankly, I'm surprised this is not even more an issue with transguys than transwomen.

Also, Waymon, you hit a big issue right on the nose. What do those of us who either can't or haven't yet had SRS do? We have to live our lives, too. The reality is that a bit more basic human consideration and a little less indulgence in outdated stereotypes is what's really called for here.

You Know Alex.
Your right we all do need to grow up a little around these issues which is why the safety issue needs to be discussed the one group that this impacts the most i see is not represented here in this discussion. I do know how many of my borne female and lesbian friends feel about this issue and frankly they would not be kind in their discussion of this issue.

Think about the absurdity of this thread so far.
Not one Borne Female has commented on it. Streight Lesbian or otherwise. For them it is a No Brain'r

It's easy for you to say "we should obsessing over the bathroom" it's not the bathroom Alex it's the locker room. Unless you visit bathrooms I don't I have never seen nudity in a publicly accessible bathroom at a private business i haven't. nobody gets naked there.

It's easy for you as a Gay Man to minimize this issue. You don't face the issues the female half of this planet must face every day.

This is not like employment discrimination. This is about providing a safe place for people to do what they must.

Take care

Unfortunately life isn't fair...
If it was i would have been borne sighted instead of blind and not needed surgery to restore partial sight. I also would have been borne fully female instead of with a female brain and a birth defect between my legs. Now i managed to live a decent life and by the way have a very successful electronics career until nature took it's course and i lost some of what little sight i had. (thank god for disability insurance otherwise my standard of living would be even worse) Being borne blind like being borne in the wrong body is a handicap, those who succeed adapt and overcome. Those who feel sorry for themselves never succeed. I don't do "Poor-Me" very well. People make choices they can look at the cake but not eat it.... Some pre-transition females double or triple up as roommates split expenses drive some POS car walk to and from work. they get their surgery, and they don't sit around feeling sorry for themselves. A woman i know here lived in a back room of a business eating off a hot plate and doing odd jobs . she saved up money and had her surgery. You have to ask yourself why don't others make the same kinds of sacrifices??

The single use option for restrooms is the only viable way to deal with the bathroom issue....
But that is not the issue here.
Lets examine some facts;
100% of the reported rapes in the last 2 years were men raping women.

over 95% of the sexual assults during the same period of time were men assulting women.

Why do you lock your door at night?
Why do you lock your car?

The issue really is safety.

Take care

Personally I would advise a young transwoman to focus on her education as that would impact her overall well-being.

Perhaps I'm just an uppity non-op but I think that we do transwomen a disservice by giving so much emphasis to genital surgeries.

I also think that for those women that it would be an issue that having the surgery won't change much. Nancy Burkeholder was post op when she was asked to leave Michigan. The incident occurred only after she outed herself as transsexual.

I certainly agree with you Emilia on education.

For me and many others it was all about genital surgery from first day we knew something was wrong. (3 years old for me) The difference is you don't see what is between your legs as being a birth defect, I do.

For those of us who had the birth defect fixed it is a large boost in self confidence. we are who we should have been at birth. Most of us can change our documentation all way back to the birth certificate and have the wrong birth certificate sealed only accessible by court order.

i don't know where you came up with the idea that having surgery doesn't change much. it's been my experience it changes a lot. perhaps you should get to know more Post-Op's . I know something on the order of three dozen post-ops and maybe one in five would agree with you.

Take care

So the presence of male genitalia AUTOMATICALLY makes that person a predator? Those darn things just drive the body around forcing you to ogle, rape, and assault?

Come on!

With a bit of common sense, you can keep things under wraps. Change in the stall, shower at home. Just don't go waving it around! Most pre-ops/non-ops that I know didn't really want to show the thing off anyway.

If someone behaves inappropriately in the locker room, then just deal with it.

I know quite a few post-ops, some of whom have lives I don't envy. Sure they finally got the body they need, but then what? I'm talking about those who do not start out from an economic position of privilege prior prior to transition.

Also, I agree about the needless demonization of those with a penis.

So the presence of male genitalia AUTOMATICALLY makes that person a predator? Those darn things just drive the body around forcing you to ogle, rape, and assault?

Usually not

There are exceptions though....
it is the exceptions we have laws for after all.

Once at the movies i had occasion to sue the ladies room. I found a TG person standing up while using the toilet.
The conversation went like this..

Me.. looks at the man and he looks back.
other person... what are you looking at?
Me... You, Hasn't anybody taught you how to use the bathroom?
other person... Yah so what?

He began to walk out i followed him and in a voice loud enough for everyone to hear. i said.

"If you are going to use the ladies room, Act like a lady not a man in a dress"

and i will do it again the next time this ever happens in my company.

I am no stranger to calling someone out on bad behavior.

Take care

"Act like a lady not a man in a dress"


I'm not sure that is a story I would proudly retell. I'm not sure who made you gender police, but harassing and belittling another person because they don't act the way you think they should is not something to be bragging about in my book.

How you live your life and define yourself is your business and right. To tell others how they should behave or what they should do with their bodies (to have surgery or not) is not, in my opinion. What has worked for you is not the only path for people to take.

The truly good news is those of us who live in the United States still have a God given right to free speech.

As to who made me the gender police?
Same person who made you the Gender anarchist.

So much for bathroom issues.

It really is laughable to see Gay Men commenting on this, since it doesn't impact them in any way shape or form....

I would have to ask who made any of you here the locker room police.

I haven to like sex segregation it makes me and other females feel safe knowing that we have a place where no man shall tread.

You can go ahead and call me a bigot if you want.
You should ask your Mother how she would feel about having a man in the ladies locker room.

Take care

Except that most of aren't talking about men in the ladies locker room, Sue.

Only you are.

BEAR A-M Rodgers | January 16, 2008 5:14 PM

Okay, some of us know Sue Robins and have seen her rhetoric before. Moving on....

As a cop that does lockerrom policing as part of his duties: I have been using the Mens Lockerrooms for years, since transition. Guess what, I don't have a penis. Before changing my ID to male I felt very out of place when FORCED to use the Womens Lockerrooms. And let me tell you, I have seen more cases of natal-female on natal-female sex acts, including rape, in those lockerrooms than there were reports of men attacking women in lockerrooms. So the whole "protect the women" baloney is just.. baloney. ANYONE who forces themselves on another is a bad person, regardless of genitals or gender. Perverts are of all genders, orienations, and any other variation imaginable.
It is too bad a person claiming to be Trans has such hatred for natal-WOMEN that they will spread the idea that they are just victims waiting to be victimized.

"Except that most of aren't talking about men in the ladies locker room, Sue.

Only you are."

Amen, AnneB.

As to who made me the gender police?
Same person who made you the Gender anarchist.

Waymon's now a gender anarchist? Seriously?

And I would say that issues regarding gender policing and LGBT discrimination protections do affect gay men. And this issue, at least as it's written, is also about transmen.


Thanks for raising a good point (and I don't just mean about Sue's rhetoric.... LOL...).

"ANYONE who forces themselves on another is a bad person, regardless of genitals or gender. Perverts are of all genders, orientations, and any other variation imaginable."

That's the whole point of the original post. To blame any one group (like when the "Not MY Shower" folks blame TGs) for sexual perversion is wrong.

The ordinance that was passed was to protect people (TGs and people who don't fit into society and Sue's definition of gender) from discrimination and let them go about their lives. How people can be against that is beyond me.

Hey, I've been called much worse than gender anarchist. If trying to broaden people's minds beyond the narrow gender definition of "boys have a penis, girls have a vagina", then I guess I am pretty radical. :)

And I do think Alex is completely right. Anti-discrimination policies based on gender identity and gender policing affects everyone, LGBT and straight alike.

One thing Bear neglects to mention is female on female sexual assault is rare and the female who is being attacked has a chance of fending off the attacker. I would have to ask Bear how would Bear tell the difference between a man in a dress and a Pre-Op TS or a full time TG person?

SO much for Bear and Bear's dogma.....
moving On.

The original article stated it was a "man in a dress"
now moving on from there...

Alex it is about Transwomen to an extent...
and there is an issue there that does need to be addressed. However as i have said how do you or anybody else here plan on keeping women safe?
I am sorry a locker room is no place for most Pre-Ops and nearly every Non-Op i have ever met.


"ANYONE who forces themselves on another is a bad person, regardless of genitals or gender. Perverts are of all genders, orientations, and any other variation imaginable."

How do you propose to insure the safety women in mixed locker rooms? Will you be there for the traumatized ones who were attacked, molested or even raped?
This is so far past what the average Gay Man is capable of understanding.

It will never happen in my locker room law or not.
And Thank God there are no laws that allow that in California or Texas.

Take care

@sue robins "I would have to ask Bear how would Bear tell the difference between a man in a dress and a Pre-Op TS or a full time TG person?"

I would include a post-op transwoman as well. I've known crossdressers who pass much better then many post-op transwomen.

If your idea for protecting women's dressing room from anything that male looking, surgery won't be much protection.

Spending upwards of $10,000 on a new set of genitals will not protect you from transphobia.

Emilia you are correct Socialization does more for a person blending into female society then genitals facial surgery and fake boobs ever could.

The surgery is for person not for society. I thought i had maid that point earlier oh well i can make it again i guess. with that said i still stand by what i have said...

I still find it interesting that No borne females who live as females have commented on this thread.

We should find out what they think since they are the majority of the kind of people we would find in a ladies locker room.

Take care

"This is so far past what the average Gay Man is capable of understanding."


I would be careful about saying what other people do and do not understand, especially when it come to sexual assault. It might be surprising to you, but women are not the only victims of violent sex crimes.

Now when you quoted the "man in a dress" from the article (comment 37), you where right. That was a quote from the hate-filled, anti-trans group that is launching the attack on gender identity protections. That is how they define ALL trans people.

And the fact that you keep saying that no "borne females" are commenting seems to indicate that you have some kind of gender hierarchy or distinctions that maybe I just don't grasp. All of the women that have commented here are born women, whether transitioned or not. Why all the “bourne women”, “post-op”, and “men in dresses” distinctions? Are these women’s opinions less because they haven’t had a full operation like you?

That’s exactly the narrow thinking that causes gender identity based discrimination in the first place.

again Waymon you are putting words in my mouth.
I used the phrase Borne Females I may have slipped up once and said borne women But i don't think so if i did please sight the post number.

You seem to want to make this about gender when it is really about Sex. Need i remind you Gender is a state of being Not a social construct not an organ but a state of being most likely brought about by by brain chemistry. We are talking about sex here
Penis and Vagina kind of sex, and how the majority of vagina people feel unsafe when penis people are watching them undress. This is because the biology of the majority of penis people gets out of hand when they see naked vagina people.

What about this is so hard to understand?

Gender has nothing to do with this.

Take care

BEAR A-M Rodgers | January 16, 2008 7:33 PM

Well, I am BEAR, not Bear, but since it was parts of my post Sue is trying to skewer I will respond.

The cases of natal-female on natal-female rape in lockerrooms in 2007 (in 1 jurisdiction) was 27, the number of natal-male on natal-female rape in lockerrooms (in same jurisdiction) was 1. However, natal-male on natal-male lockerroom attacks were 74. Notice the word "natal". There were no reports of pre-op Trans or post-Op Trans people raping anybody. Yes, we know the difference in most cases, this TN where post-op Transsexuals are put in the Prison of birth gender because of pre-transition arrest records, or because their TN birth certificates are not changeable by law. Out of state post-ops are a little luckier, but those are few and far between in the area.
Oh wait, did Sue miss the fact I am FTM? Hello Sue, I am post-op FTM, a cop, counselor, chaplain, and seen it from both sides. Female on Female rape is just as brutal, if not worse, than Male on Female rape. Matter of fact, the psychological effect is even worse for women feeling betrayed by another woman, since ignorant folks assume all men are potential rapists anyway. Or in some cases (like Sue's), penis = rapist. I guess we should let all those natal-females out of prison who raped females and males (usually brutally with foreign objects, by over powering the victim first) because they are safer than the Transwoman who just needs to use the toilet, or clean up. (Wonder where FTMs fit into Sue's warpiness. I look like a man, act like a man, carry a penis object, still have a vagina, can beat the crap out of a man or woman with my bare hands, and hate using public restrooms because people like Sue are trying to look at me thru the door crack.)

Actually, gender has everything to do with this post.

Read it again.

The ordinance that was passed talks about GENDER IDENTITY.

You (and the anti-trans group in the post) are the one hung up on genitals and physicality, Sue.

"This is because the biology of the majority of penis people gets out of hand when they see naked vagina people."

Penis=Predator? Ugh. Way to stereotype all men.

"hate using public restrooms because people like Sue are trying to look at me thru the door crack"

You made me smile, BEAR. :)

well Bear i am partially sighted so excuse my blindness.

I would love to know what jurisdiction you are talking about and if they have a law that allows borne males in the lockerooms of borne females.
It does make a difference.

The issue is not allowing pre-op, post-op TS or TG's into the ladies locker room it is about letting Men who identify as Men into the ladies locker room.
Most TS and TG's know enough to ether stay out or behave while they are in such Women's spaces.

I know you are F2M (known that for years) and if you were in any locker room i was in i would expect to act in a civilized female way. If you didn't act appropriately i would be the first to throw you out.

Remember again the article in question is talking about MEN(translate as borne MALES) in the ladies locker room.

Keep in mind Bear i to this point have not been calling people names or using phrases like you have. I don't lower myself to using phrases like

Transwoman who just needs to use the toilet, or clean up. (Wonder where FTMs fit into Sue's warpiness.

By the way i have been Post-Transition for some time now. Even my doctor in San Antonio couldn't tell the difference. There is a lot to be said for having a good surgeon.

I wouldn't waste my time looking through the crack at or anybody else. if you want to post here in a civil manner please do. Otherwise don't let your testosterone out of control and demean people.

I find it regrettable you have to stoop to childish remarks to try and win a debate.
You were like this before when i left that TG Yahoo group you tried to monopolize.

Hay Don't Taze me Bro.


You know Waymon that is really a disgusting and degrading comment Bear made.
it shows that too much Testosterone is indeed bad.

I would like to know what city or county he is a cop for.

Take care


The article in question is about gender identity protections - not men in the women's restroom, although this is the scare angle embraced by CRG.

More general comment, in light of ENDA debates of late:

I commend Waymon and any other LGB individual that engages in conversations about these issues from an intent to support transpeople. Sure, Waymon isn't on the front lines, that would be Sue, BEAR, Rebecca, and I. But, if I may press the metaphor too far, he can pressure the government to make sure our Humvee has body armor on it.

This legislation provides no protection against anyone who assaults someone. Even if the attacker is trans and assaults a woman in a locker room.

This legislation does, however, provide some legal support for transwomen who need to pee. If she is pre-op/non-op and pisses standing up, yes, it will spook the horses but at the end of the fucking day nobody is hurt by that. Arresting her would be a waste of money. Sheesh. It's a big world out there.

Thank you, Paris. Finally a voice of reason.

While I agree I am not on the front lines, I try and do all I can to support my trans brothers and sisters in the fight for protections and rights.

That includes trying to push the definitions of "gender" and people's perceptions of them by talking about TG issues.

I am sorry if you were offended, Sue, but you have to understand that the story you told offend many people as well. Harassing a TG person and publicly embarrassing them because they didn't think they acted "like a lady should" is offensive and degrading.

Comments like "it shows that too much Testosterone is indeed bad" also are offensive and again show you general bias against men. If anyone should take a step back and be more respectful, I think it should be you.

Now thank you for the lively conversation, everyone, but I am off to bed.

Paris i think you are confusing the Locker room with the Rest room. We are talking about the locker room here and by adopting a law that would allow men, in that women's space the law and the owner of the business allows for additional opportunities for assault. I find that unacceptable, what is really needed is a law that would allow a transperon to use these facilities if a letter from a licensed therapist is on file with the business. All of us who are Post-Op have had to deal with these situations in order to accommodate the standards of care. There are ways everyone's legitimate needs can be met.

in my almost 28 years living a crossgender live i have only been asked to leave a restroom once, it was the men's room at a local multiplex.

The Restroom is not the issue as i have said elsewhere in this thread nobody is naked in a restroom Not even Larry Craig.

Take care

Waymon your comments to me i have found Not to be offensive Bear on the other hand in his usual heavy handed way managed to offend me the Testosterone related comment was directed directly at him, and i make no apologies for it. You I and everyone else have discussed these issues with a civil tone and in a respectful way. I don't like being bullied degraded or called names any more then anybody else the only difference is i won't tolerate it from anybody Even Cops.

If we don't explore people's feelings on subjects like this we cannot expect to grow and make our lives and those around us better.

Sleep well and have pleasant dreams.
I shall be doing the same soon i have a cold to whip and see if i can go another two years without becoming ill.

Take care

Last time I checked, restrooms have stalls and stall doors, if multiple use. Very few jobs, as a percentage of the employed workplace, require showers in a community shower facility. A law can be worded to require the T employee to be given use of a private shower, allowed to shower at home instead,
given a private time to shower, etc. It is also possible to place privacy stalls in open shower rooms.

As usual, the Religious Reich's argument is a canard. The bathroom and shower issues can be easily overcome.

That phrase "Not my shower" is so uber-possessive.

Good point, Alex. It's gone from "in your daughter's shower" to "my shower." This isn't so much about protecting innocent little girls (who are almost always segregated from adults to start with), but their own uncomfortable feelings around trans folks.

A few questions for Sue - who really knows how to drive up a comment thread.

It boils down to this for me, Sue... When you say things like...

A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story.

It makes me realize how simplistic your world view is. By this same standard, you're not a woman either - as much as you like to claim you are a post-op woman it doesn't meet the standards. You were born with male genitals. You are a man - end of story. Now, you may have had your penis cut off, but that still wouldn't make you a man - no matter your sly attempt to muddy the water with "Do you currently have gonads or not" red herring. According to your logic, you still wouldn't be a woman - you'd be a man with his willy and balls cut off. That would make a eunich at best and a deformation at worst - not a woman.

But when you also say things like:

Lets examine some facts;
100% of the reported rapes in the last 2 years were men raping women.

then I know you're full of shit and just pulling arguments out of your ass to try and make a point. This obviously made up statistic is proof that you're just trying to argue without bothering to make some sort of rational thought. Prove it. I'll bet you $50 that you can't. Know how? Just the other day here in Indianapolis there was a man-on-man rape reported. I've been raped - and I'm not a woman.

So when you say things like "100%... were men raping women," and you completely attempt to nullify my experience of having my head stuck in a mop bucket while three huge drug crazed street folks brutally fucked me, sodomized me with a broom handle and beat me with it? Then the only words I have to say is:

"Fuck you."

Because not only are you offensive to the trans folk with your story, you're offensive to me with your attempts to gloss over the rest of us with your own inane bullshit.

Oh, dear. Once again the debate about sex/gender/genitalia focuses solely on MTF people. If a person with a penis is a man, what about we FTMs who have vaginas and pee through female urethras, usually sitting down, but have facial hair and deep voices and pass as 100% male? Hmmm? Should we all go into the Ladies room because of our genitalia? Or risk scaring the men by using the stall in the gents? It never ceases to amaze me how MTFs blithely ignore the issues of FTMs when talking about trans issues just like the "regular" folks.

When you combine two different items I have said and use them both out of context it is just as good as putting words in my mouth. This tactic I thought was one that the religious right owned. So start off by apologizing for putting words in my mouth and I won’t remind you this really doesn’t concern a Gay Man, This is a matter for Females. Thank you. Also keep in mind this issue deals with MEN not Transwomen. There can always be accommodations made for Transwomen. Let also take the chance to remind you this is about physical sex not gender….

Now that we have established the ground rules again for this discussion…. I will move on to your next statement.

Before you go saying I am not a woman let me clue you in a little fact. I am an XXY Female. DON’T pull that sexual judge and jury stuff on me. I can see that your view of biological sexuality is rather simplistic in itself. You really should do your homework regarding intersex issues I am even embarrassed to be reading this comment of yours because it is so un like you to be this unknowledgeable.

If you don’t like my facts regarding sexual assault and rape then dispute them with your own facts don’t call me names. Name calling is the last resort of a man who has no leg to stand on.

I am sorry you might think I am full of it…
That is your right it is even your right to use the language you have been using. You know and that is fine The Post Transition females I know all agree with me and nearly all the Non-Ops do also.

I still have yet to see the lesbian identified females (not F2M’s) comment on this story…

I know exactly what they would say if they did.

Lets all hope this ordinance gets a good rewriting that would make both Natal Females and Transwomen happy.

Take care

I want to take a moment and thank everyone for their comments on this story. I am going to be writing a peace in my column in the Neutral Corner newsletter on this ordinance.

For those who don't know what Neutral corner is; we are a support and social group for TS/TG women here in San Diego Founded in 1979 and incorporated in 1982 Neutral is the oldest TG/TS support group and the only TG/TS Non Profit in San Diego. We have jsut over 75 dues paying members which include TG/TS women mental health professionals and service providers.

Thank y'all for your input and insight into this somewhat volitile issue.

Take care
Susan Robins
President Neutral Corner.


So basically you are saying (paraphrase).

"Don't bother arguing with me because I already know how everyone will respond?"


I'm actually don't think Bil was putting words in your mouth at all. You did say some very offensive things about gay men not understanding sexual crimes, all rapes being male on female, "male genitals=man", and other things.

When you say controversial, and sometimes mean-spirited things, expect hard push back. Many gay men, myself and Bil included, understand the issue of sexual assault and rape all too well. So don't presume to make up facts and make broad statements without consequences. Along those same lines, Bil was not playing judge with you about your own gender identification; he was simply using some of your comments and logic to show you how narrow your views of gender are and how what you have said would apply to you.

I also think the "everyone I know" argument that you use is weak and invalid. I can say the same thing, but it doesn't make it true.

You seem very sure of what everyone would say on this issue if they commented, but you are actually the only one saying it.

And please stop invalidating the comments and opinions of anyone that does not fit into your idea of "woman". It is insulting to our readers and not appropriate.

I like the fact that we can have open discussion here on the Project. While you may feel that this particular issue may not affect the gay men on the site, I would completely disagree. Gender identity protections affect us all. This post is about gender, not genitalia. Gender is something we can all relate to and have views on. By coming together and discussing these issues, our community is finding common ground and common experiences, which make us all stronger in our fight for equality and rights.

Let's just get something "straight"...

Now that we have established the ground rules again for this discussion….

You don't make the rules here, Sue. I do. When your name is in the blog title, you can make the rules.

your right i don't make the rules Bil.

A little constructive criticism if i may...

You really do need some sensitivity training regarding intersex people.

It is so sad to see you fall back on the
"and your a man" agruement when you have no idea what my medical history is.

Thankfully i am not the one beating the political correctness bully pulpit.

Have a nice day
Try to be more accepting of those you do not understand.


I guess what bothers me most about this whole thread.
is that in spite that accommodations can be made for transwomen there are still people who feel justified in standing up for an ordinance that allows non trans identified men in a woman's locker room.

That is an invasion of woman's/ female spaces and shows a certain selfishness on the part of those who would stand for such a ordinance.

People have a certain right to privacy even in public settings.

You have been respectful in your comments Waymon and clear in your message. Given this is such a touchy subject (there is a term i would use however someone here may find it offensive that describes this subject even better)
Take care


Okay stick a fork in me because i am done.

OK so I read through most of these comments, and am very disturbed by Sue's apparent willingness to speak for all "women born women," make assumptions about gay men, etc etc etc

so with all due respect Sue - you do not know what I think nor should you presume to generalize about lesbians or anyone else. Haven't we at least learned that in our very diverse community??

I respect your opinion Sue but also strongly and respectfully disagree, as a woman who is - to say the least - gender non-conforming. I've been yelled at enough times going into the ladies room ("hey - that's the ladies room!") enough times to understand that the reaction is not because they think I am going to attack them but that I am "breaking the rules"

Let's be clear about what this ridiculous web site and campaign are about: it is a fear mongering tactic by bigots to curtail the rights of anyone who does not fit into the neat little boxes of male and female, particulary transgender people. And they are clearly able to have the same impact on folks like Sue as they do on their target audience of parents, teachers, etc in the general public

a few points:

there are - to the best of my knowledge - never been any incidents of any trans-person (pre or post op) attacking or targeting anyone in a bathroom

if someone wants to assault or rape a women a bathroom is not the only place to do it and a sign on the door that says "women" probably won't stop them anyway

I have in fact been in situations where a person I assumed - correctly - to be a MTF woman, approached a airport bathroom with some trepidation. I could see it in her eyes and decided to do the right thing - i walked up to her and said - "hey, I have to go, too, we'll make a cute couple" and we strode right in, getting a few looks but with all the privacy we needed in the stalls

ok - about the showers - I am finding more and more that gyms, schools, locker rooms etc are moving toward private stalls and a curtain, because people simply want privacy and frankly, a threat can come from anyone - gay, straight, female, male, whatever.....some schools even have security guards in the bathrooms and locker rooms to monitor behavior, so this is really a red herring


Confession time.

I used the womens locker room at my gym when I was pre-op.

I know, I know. I should have been tarred and feathered. Apparently I showed superhuman restraint to keep from attacking the other occupants (the little brain controls ALL).

Apparently I was at risk of sexually assaulting women (sexual orientation be damned).

You know what? Nothing happened? I locked up my bag (gym rules, no bags on the gym floor), used the restroom and went on my way. I didn't ogle the women that were changing (that would be rude). On the times when I needed to change clothes, I used a toilet stall (I wasn't the only one).

When I went with friends that knew of my pre-op status they didn't freak out. They didn't act any differently because I was there. They did not appear to feel threatened.

I was not required to check in with the business. I did not have to wear a special badge.

If someone behaves badly in public, they should be held accountable. I don't think there is a need to pre-convict people based on crimes that they haven't commited.

"there are still people who feel justified in standing up for an ordinance that allows non trans identified men in a woman's locker room."


No one has stood up for that at all. This whole post is about TG people having the same access to public spaces. You were actually the one to bring up the "if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story" issue in this thread.

The rest of us have simply been arguing that regardless of your genitals, people shouldn’t be discriminated against or demonized (like the "not my shower" group does) because of their gender identity.

Can we just stop for a second at comment #64 and note that, if nothing else, Sue Robins is a total badass for being personally responsible for skyrocketing this comment count into the dozens?

Is there really anyone else that could sustain a 1 vs. 6 person arguement for 24 straight hours?

I agree, Nick. God bless her stamina and rather controversial comments.

And here I thought this was going to be just a quick little post about an annoying hate group...


First Sue, your premise is flawed on its face. You seem to be equating successful SRS with a passable gendered appearance. As we both know, the two may coincide in the same transperson, but by no means does one mandate or prohibit the other.

In my own case, I do pretty well in terms of passability, but I have not had surgery as it is cost-prohibitive for me. Does that make me less of a woman? No, what it makes me is pre or non-operative, nothing more, and nothing less. The "biology is destiny" argument is not only rabidly anti-feminist, but also flies directly in the face of our own life experiences as transpeople, and, not incidentially, the life experiences of LGB people as well.

This is the biggest problem I have with the bathroom issue in general. It's totally blown out of proportion. For one thing, no one's fretting over born men having to share a bathroom or locker room with transmen (at least not that I've heard) other than perhaps some transmen themselves. On the other hand, everyone is all a-flutter about the possibility of born women having to share facilities with transwomen.

I defy anyone, including you Sue, to give me one provable example of a male sexual predator dressing up as a woman and using trans-inclusive anti-discrimination laws in order to get access to the ladies room and commit some kind of sexual attack. It just doesn't happen. It's every bit as much a bigoted scare tactic as the shower thing.

The vast majority of transwomen I know aren't going to be putting themselves on display in a locker room situation unless they absolutely have no choice, and the fact is that there's almost always a choice...we know it, most straight folks who understand what a transperson is know it (hence the 60-70% level of support for trans rights in the workplace, despite the HRC/DNC/GOP anti-trans bigot brigade), and anyone in the approximately 50% of Americans who live in areas where trans rights are protected in the US who's ever had to deal with such a situation knows it.

The sexual predators in the bathroom thing is a red herring, just as it is in the case of Larry Craig. It's making assumptions about Queer people's sexual proclivities based on things which have little or no actual impact on such desires. It's hatemongering and bigotry of the first order.

It's not common sense, and it's not even common belief anymore. What it is is political gamesmanship practiced by HRC, Frank, Kennedy, Smith, Pelosi, Miller, and others who seek to play on the discomfort with one group of persecuted Americans in order to make it more politically palatable to pass rights for wealthier, more politically potent groups to help fill Democratic coffers with donations and the polls with Democratic voters.

And guess what Sue? You're falling for it, along with every other American who buys into the idea that the presence or absence of a certain body part determines if that person is a likely threat or not.

This argument is crap, it's always been crap, and it will always be crap. Let's finally get our heads out of this 1950's kind of thinking, and start addressing the real issues of transpeople, like the youth of our movement already have.

It's time this movement and the people in it started looking to the possibilities of the future instead of wallowing in the bigotries of the past.

"Think about the absurdity of this thread so far.
Not one Borne Female has commented on it. Streight Lesbian or otherwise. For them it is a No Brain'r"

Sue, you can't talk about all female-born-womyn with such broad strokes. We're not all the same, just as all trans people aren't the same.

I'm chiming into the convo a bit late in the game and quite frankly, I'm too busy to read all 66 comments ahead of me. So if I'm repeating something, please forgive me.

I'm female-bodied and I don't have a problem with anyone who identifies as a womyn using the womyn's restroom and/or locker room. Quite frankly, when I'm changing out in the locker room, I'm too busy to pay attention to what anyone else is doing. I've got a life. And it doesn't revolve around inspecting other people's business.

And before you drum up the safety issue, Sue, I am also a rape survivor. And I choose to live my life without allowing the fear of sexual assault to control where I pee or where I get dressed.

This is all a red herring. How many of us use mixed-sex restrooms at the gay bars? Raise your hands everyone, because you know you do. Am I more likely to be assaulted at a gay bar, then? Because by Sue's logic, I would.

Also, womyn can sexually assault other womyn, and men can sexually assault other men. It's a fact our community is hesitant to admit, but it's true. But I'm not going to live my life afraid of sexual predators jumping out from behind the bushes.

Stop drinking the haterade, Sue. Just because you managed to pull yourself up by the proverbial bootstraps, it doesn't give you the right to pass judgement on others and tell them where they can and can't go.

OK, I'm off to class. Ya'll have a beautiful (and hopefully pervert-free) day!

Serena - I commented as a transman which, in Sue's eyes, makes me a woman-born-woman. But I get your point!

"Stop drinking the haterade"

Serena, I think I love you. :)

Rebecca, you hit the nail on the head with your comment (#66).

Okay back by popular damand.
Not one but Three people sent me emails asking me to return to this thread and at least comment on what Rebecca said…….

By the way Waymon all of my partners male female and TG (all five of them in my life) have commented on my staying power. It’s a gift given to a select few. J

With that……
Rebecca, I admire you and have said so here. I have not ever set any standard for passability except to say that presentation is what matters. With that I am going to throw out this Pre Vs Post argument. You have to remember both my girlfriend and one of my best friends are Pre-Op’s. So with that said….
Biology is not Destiny I know that better then most I was borne with defective biology remember I was borne blind and TS to boot. The way ordnance is written allows men; you know those Penis people who love their penises who don’t want to transition who are different from Transwomen Like You into spaces women Like You and I and the rest of the 52% of the population really don’t want them in. I don’t swear so let me say the ordnance is screwed up and needs to be repealed or rewritten.

For those keeping score I have said this twice now. Any lawyer who is honest (and not breathing his or own methane) will tell you No law is better then a bad law. In the strongest language I can muster have the damned law re written or repealed otherwise Transfolk will have so much crap on their faces the smell will never go away. Come on Y’all know all about Bad Laws Remember the Non Inclusive ENDA???

I happen to agree with you Rebecca the Bathroom Issue is blown way out of proportion. But that is not what this is about……..
This is about a law that lets Man-identified-Borne-Males into a woman’s locker room clearly “Women’s Spaces”. That is the issue. I certainly wouldn’t throw you out of that space however I would throw out any Natal Male who was not in transition. Repeating myself for the (I don’t know lost count) this ordnance allows anyone with a penis into these spaces that would include Howard Stern and OJ Simpson. Two people I would dare to enter into my woman’s space, it would be castration time. Yah I have a lot of anger about this issue I have to fall back on my statement some comments back about the number of natal females would take issue with my position on this issue. I seem to keep falling back on the same bedrock oh well it’s solid.

I understand the problems gender varient natal females have more then you think. I know my roommate won’t see this and she and I use to be lovers (before transition) she asked once why so many lesbians hit on her (she is hetro trust me I can’t go there since starting HRT) I told her once why.. She almost hit me. She without knowing it gives of signals that make some natal women uncomfortable and turn on some lesbians. So yah… I know what gender variance is all about from many different angles.

Rebecca you said…

“I defy anyone, including you Sue, to give me one provable example of a male sexual predator dressing up as a woman and using trans-inclusive anti-discrimination laws in order to get access to the ladies room and commit some kind of sexual attack.”

Actually there was a man here in SanDiego who dressed up as a woman and would attract children and molest them. Please be careful about the examples you trot out for examination. It has happened, I am sorry to say while this happened in the 70’s TG/TS folk here paid their dues for most of twenty years because of that. ……

You are right the vast majority of TG women are not going to venture into the locker room to change. Some day someone will craft reasonable laws that allow this to happen with some education from the TG community to back it up. For the (I don’t know I am loosing count) time TG women are not men…..

Oh one more thing….
You said…
“The sexual predators in the bathroom thing is a red herring,”
can I invite you to Balboa Park here in SanDiego? Unfortunately I had to use a restroom in Balboa Park IN THE MIDDLE of the City of SanDiego and on that occasion I had to pepper spray a pervert, So please DON’T TELL ME this is a red herring, because hon you are so wrong. (perverts need to be made into hog food)

God this is turning into a book (do you think I can get an advance on this?)

Rebecca I am not falling for anything except for my almost 28 years of experience being out as both a Paleo-TG person and as a Post-Transition female. Sorry to say if it has happened and you can live through it I have been there…

Rebecca your heart is in the right place but come on the ordnance is crap and needs to be rewritten or revoked hon.

Come on I don’t have much hair left to pull out…
Take care

PS… what is on the first hour of the show tonight I have to go with my roomie to the vet during the second hour.

Sue Robins

Serena perhaps you should have read a few more of the comments...
I don't have a problem with women identified persons being in women's spaces...
The ordinance allows men in those spaces.
That i have a problem with.

(you ever feel like a brken record?)

Oh well...
Take care

Something to remember Waymon...
if it wasn't for Hetro-Sex none of us would be here.


We do have to acknoledge our mothers and fathers.

Take care

I am late to this discussion, too... I tried to read all the other comments and listen but I found myself getting mad...

I find straight women do a lot more looking at each other, evaluating each other naked that I do. A lot more.

I'm still waiting to be hit on, cruised or otherwise complimented in the locker room. hasn't happened. just the straight chicks breathing a sigh of relief their breasts are in fact perkier.

I don't feel especially privileged because I have breasts and a vagina. Anyone who identifies as female is welcome in my locker room. women's locker rooms are very private, showers are always enclosed- we don't do group things like the boys- and we always have stalls.

sometimes? couches. I love couches.

But that's not what got me mad...

I'm not even going to comment on the rape comment made earlier except to say don't ever, and I mean EVER assume you can make a blanket statement about rape and not hurt someone. You always will.

That made me mad. Don't ever tell me what my experience is and don't generalize me. I am an individual. My rape, my healing, my reality does not fit in anyone's box.

I'm not afraid of men. I love men. I'm not afraid of penises, I'm not scared of people in transition. People in transition, people cannot afford to transition but live as women or as men, are MY COMMUNITY. My friends, my allies, my compadres. Like Cathy said, I'd grab a hold of someone's arm I didn't know and help them in a heartbeat, too.

Just because.

Mostly, I want to remind everyone that it's a very very small percentage of the population we're talking about. Men are not going to be going to women's locker rooms. Women are not going to go to mens' locker rooms (why would we? they have no couches! no make up mirrors, no blow dryers, no hair ties...)

As a woman, as a mother, as a gender non- conformist, I welcome who ever needs to come change in my locker room. You want to check out my flabby old ass, go ahead, most the straight girls are, too.

enough with the vagina privilege, or the chromosome comparison. I don't care. I have an hour away from my kids to run, swim, sweat and work on the before mentioned flabby ass. leave me be, I'll leave you be, and don't leave your towel on the floor.

Straight women always look at each other. They evaluate compare and sometimes admire. Straight men are too retentive to do the same, it’s been commented on before straight men need to loosen up a little, they won’t because they are under a lot of pressure to be masculine and perform in bed. I don’t know what being a gay man is like never been there, like being F2M I cannot comment on something I cannot experience.
I have never crusied a locker room or anywhere else for that matter to find a mate. The few mates I have had always come to me through mainstream channels like high school, college through other friends or from the Internet (where I met my current girlfriend). I have never thought of health clubs or locker rooms as places to pick up potential mates. That is just me though I have known plenty of guys who cruise the gym for a girl or a guy.

Sara nobody ever told YOU what your experience is, was or should be. Nobody ever said transwomen were not allowed in women’s spaces. Please try to read the whole thread before making such statements. We and I include my my friends in that don’t man-identified males in our spaces, for obvious reasons and the potential for rape is one of those very good reasons. I am so sorry if you don’t want to hear that, that is just too bad.

It is the very, very small percentage we need to be on the look out for. another very, very small percentage changed this country back on September 11th 2001, now we have to live with it.

I had one of those very, very small percentage of men follow me home from work one day intending to do me harm, I beat the living shit out of that low-life white male bastard, and I am proud of defending myself. I don’t want to ever see anything like that in women’s spaces, neither do you and you know it.

If you had been following the thread you would perhaps have changed your comments…

Take care
I hope you never have to fend off one of those low life creeps.


Last year, an acquaintance of mine did a search of LexisNexis for reported restroom incidents involving trans people -- searching more than 250 newspapers over the past 10 years.

Guess how many incidents she found. One. In which, the reporting party told the cops she'd merely been startled and on second thought it was no big deal. So no charges were filed.

The be fair, I do recall hearing about a crossdressed man caught perving in the bathroom sometime in the past year.

In contrast, she found numerous reports of non-crossdressed men perving in women's rooms.

So exactly who's the threat here?

And anyway what makes people think that a would-be rapist would be deterred simply by a sign that says "Women's." Magic?

You seem to want to make this about gender when it is really about Sex. Need i remind you Gender is a state of being Not a social construct not an organ but a state of being most likely brought about by by brain chemistry. We are talking about sex here Penis and Vagina kind of sex, and how the majority of vagina people feel unsafe when penis people are watching them undress. This is because the biology of the majority of penis people gets out of hand when they see naked vagina people.

You want to get technical Sue? In the strictest definition, you're not female. The distinction between the "sexes" is that a female has the ability to produce ova, and the male has the ability to produce produces sperm. Your "sex" isn't based on an organ but on your reproductive ability. For that matter, your neo-vagina isn't even an "organ." An organ is tissue or a group of tissues that constitute a morphologically and functionally distinct part of an organism. Your "vagina" isn't a social construct, it's a surgical construct. And an incomplete construct at that! Go find your bartholin glands....

And in the above scenario, the woman wasn't afraid of genitals, but because of other physical characteristics. It's more about passing privilege than genital configuration. And judging from the pictures I've seen of you, ya got your own passing issues. So you might want to jump off that high horse of yours.

Marti it's not being technical we are talking about a law that allows men to enter into a locker room intended for women

Guess what that ordnance will be overturned and and if the TG folk there are lucky it will be rewritten and reintroduced quietly.

By the way for your information i am female.
XXy chromosomes. Now you want to be the sex police please don't impose your idea of what being female is on me. I don't impose what my idea of being a woman is on you.

Maybe you were borne a man but i wasn't and i can prove it.

Thank you.



no, it just needs to be interpreted sensibly .. CWA and others are forever pre-interpreting these things sensationally.

I don't think there's a chance on earth that Montgomery County is going to allow pre-ops in the women's locker room and there is nothing in the language of the ordinance that indicates they must do so. I'm quite sure a Unisex facility will put everyone in compliance ... not that that will make everyone happy ...


MauraHennessey | January 18, 2008 2:04 PM

I am reluctant to enter into this discussion because of the acrimony, the anger, the bitterness, the polarity of the arguements and some of the causistry used to support those positions. That said, as respectfully as I possibly can and not intending to offend anyone's conception of self, I would like to make a few points.

An individual who is anatomically male, possessing a penis, does not belong in a women's dressing area or shower area without the agreement of the women using it. Please note that I kept the description to "anatomically male" and am not extending that in any way to conceptualized gender identity.

The reason for this would be simple courtesy and respect to the women using the area and respect for their level of comfort and feelings of safety.
I did not say actual safety. I am only addressing a woman's feelings of safety in an environment when there is a sense of vulnerability to begin with.

I am surprised at the Trans Gendered/Sexual debate as to who is and is not female or a woman and the intendent vitriol. I gather that this is why the few lesbians whom I know that are post-operative distance themselves from trans identification as they are by and large simply women to most of us but cannot count on similiar respect from the community that they came from.

Cathryn Platine | January 18, 2008 3:33 PM

Wow! Someone suggested I look in on this and I see nothing has changed much in TG land. Name calling, trashing a post op woman trying to make a reasoned argument with neo-vagina comments and literally the only thing missing from the bad old days of usenet being a "mutilated crotch" one, but Marti did come close, very close. The slam on Sue's appearance was a blast from the past of the "more feminine than natal-women" variety that gets feminist backs up in a heartbeat.

Hey showers are not bathrooms. Personally I refused to join a health club pre-op when my women friends wanted me to join them for these very reasons Sue gave over their objections that no one would dare question me. It was a matter of simple curtsey in my book. Interestingly enough the vast bulk of discrimination and out and out trans-phobia I experienced over the years came from TG people, not the greater world and I see not much has changed there either.

Anyway, thanks for reminding me why my activism these days is limited to women's rights.

I think overall Liz may have a grip on what Montgomery County and any private businesses will do. There is way too much liability involved here. Money always trumps perceived civil rights. When it comes down to it the insurance companies run the country, like it or not.

Maura said…

An individual who is anatomically male, possessing a penis, does not belong in a women's dressing area or shower area without the agreement of the women using it. Please note that I kept the description to "anatomically male" and am not extending that in any way to conceptualized gender identity.

in as few words as possible Thank You..


I am surprised at the Trans Gendered/Sexual debate as to who is and is not female or a woman and the intendent vitriol. I gather that this is why the few lesbians whom I know that are post-operative distance themselves from trans identification as they are by and large simply women to most of us but cannot count on similar respect from the community that they came from.

Thank you some of us wonder why we bother to support the TG community when we have to put up with being stabbed in the back for trying to be reasonable.

Thank you Catheryn
All I have ever wanted to do was to put a sense of boundaries, what do I get for my trouble name calling and people who have a uneducated understanding of human physical sexuality.

I am deeply disappointed.

The TransGender community is far from ready for Prime time and have show their inability to get along with people in the mainstream.

I give up.

Thank you all for your support in trying to bring out the real issues involved in this issue.
Thankfully the group I do represent here in Southern California are enlightened enough to understand and appreciate these complex issues.

Take care

There's a lot here that's pretty hard to listen to. I can't put all my thoughts down right now, but I want to start by clarifying a few things.

Sue, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be backtracking. You seem to be saying that you are only talking about laws that let men enter women's locker rooms,

Serena perhaps you should have read a few more of the comments... I don't have a problem with women identified persons being in women's spaces... The ordinance allows men in those spaces. That i have a problem with.

but earlier you basically said that folks with male genitals are men, and in the first half of the thread you were almost exclusively talking about how pre-op and non-op trans WOMEN should not be let in locker rooms.

A ladies locker room is no place for Man and if you have male genitals you are a Man end of story.
Alex the Real issue is the Locker Room

Pre-Ops don't belong there.

Now from my personal experience, I used the women's locker room regularly for a women's P.E. class when I worked at a college. Without any surgical alterations, I didn't have any problems. In fact, it was an amazingly friendly environment, I ran into friends, acquaintances and other folks who I vaguely knew and each were quite happy to see me there. I even had a student I worked with show up and give me a shirt that didn't fit her that she thought would fit me.

There's no horror story there, for me. I take great offense to the idea that trans women who have not had surgery ought to be barred at the door for the safety of the (let's admit it, "real") women inside.

The local organization for supporting folks who've gone through sexual assault came out loud and clear on the topic when it was raised in my city council. The mentality that rape = men raping women, and the idea that sex segregated spaces are somehow safe until an "outsider" comes in, makes sexual assault much more possible, not less.

It's this kind of attitude against trans women who have not achieved some kind of status as "real" women, however you might define that (surgery, chromosomal abnormality, birth certificate, assigned gender, etc) which I find horribly transphobic.

It doesn't matter how many trans folk you've helped or worked with, that doesn't erase the harm you've done and are doing when you advocate for taking rights away from trans people who are "less than" you. You want to fire anyone who tells their employer their chosen gender instead of what's on their birth certificate, and you want to keep those lowly pre/non-ops out of your locker rooms, (and what do you do with those who try to gain entrance, arrest them?).

Oh and on a side note

Something to remember Waymon...
if it wasn't for Hetro-Sex none of us would be here.

Wrong again. Plenty of us made it into this world through other means. It's a big pet peeve of mine when folks invisibilize that.

Tobi the way you describe your experience is rather vague. One cannot really get a sense of what really transpired and under what conditions this occurred.

Keep in mind i would be willing to see certain allowances made for TG folk however there has to be unanimous agreement by the rest of the patrons.
I have maintained that....
and as i have said once in a post somewhere back that would require a letter from the TG person's therapist. (these two conditions are concrete and no compromise would be acceptable.)

If there is no horror story there, here or otherwise then way isn't it already happening?

You have to keep in mind there is solid reasoning for why this doesn't happen, just ask any straight woman and do remember they are the majority and carry a lot of weight in what they say. This is not like some poll that says 65% of the people in the US feel it is time for equal employment rights for transfolk which everyone but BF and HRC seem to agree with.

I would sure love to see what your city council has said can you post a link to that statement?

You can say that my reasonable requests about limiting access to the woman's locker room are transphobic all you want, This isn't going to change anything Call me names if that makes you feel good, i really don't care my requirements that a letter from a therapist be on file and that the patrons of that locker room be in in 100% agreement are not unreasonable. We are talking about a private business here and have every right even under California Law to regulate who goes into a protected space they must they answer to their patrons and their insurance company.
That is the kind or real life those who have transitioned by the SOC have had to deal with. Lets try to remember life is not guaranteed to be fair. How we adapt to the unfairness says volumes toward the kind of person we are.

Tobi i have done no harm and more good for the trans community then most people you can point to in the nearly 28 years i have been out.

Have a nice day.


Brynn Craffey Brynn Craffey | January 19, 2008 12:54 AM

Sue, what I find hard to take in your comments here is your sweeping generalities, absolutist black-and-white thinking and unwillingness or inability to concede that your point-of-view might simply be your point of view, rather than the end all and be all on the topic.

Most people express a certain tentativeness when discussing the complicated topics of sex and gender, while remaining respectful and open to various perspectives. But you speak as if you have it all figured out and are here only to sort us out and show us the right way of thinking.

A little humility and willingness to listen and learn would go a looonnng way.

That, and an occasional acknowledgment that the trans umbrella does cover FtMs also.

Brynn.......women like Sue have been listening for years and years. What's going on here and demonstrated so well by this discussion is that she and the viewpoint of many many post-everything women are the ones who's opinions are ignored, insulted and silenced.

The greater world operates on a strictly bi-gendered model and those of us who are comfortable within that model have actually had our civil rights eroded by the attempted shoving of us under a gender deconstructionist umbrella against our will by those who then claim to speak for us while erasing our existence at the same time.

I worked for trans civil rights for years on the basis of the ability of Joe Sixpack and Helen Homemaker to actually understand transsexuality since it falls within that bi-gendered model and using the poor state of FtM surgeries to ease basing these civil rights on any more surgical requirements than removing reproductive function via hormones or surgery. This is a position understandable enough to the general public that even Pat Robertson got it. This has been replaced with activists telling legislators about their feminine penises.....an idea that frankly is viewed as totally insane outside the insular little world of transland. For my troubles I have been driven out and banned from most trans civil rights discussion groups, received death threats, lost my first decent post-transitional job by being outted by my alleged "sisters", libeled and slandered endless and repeatedly called insane.

Sue is right, the TG movement is not ready for prime time.

Cathryn we have been down the same road.
Those who would tear down barriers that society has had for hundreds of years done a great deal of damage to the standing of women in-, or post-transition.

People need to remember all of the accommodations that were needed for someone to transition in the state of California such as birth certificate revision or reissue, and driver's license sex marker changes were accomplished by TS and the legal and health professionals working toward the assimilation into mainstream life of people who are borne transsexual. All of this was accomplished before 1990. Since then Transgender groups have done everything they can to reverse what has been accomplished by first forcing inclusion of TS folk secondly by trying to set up a protected class that will stigmatize TS folk and in the end will not guarantee civil rights for transfolk but will backfire and limit access to jobs and housing and other non government provided services.

Sue & Cathryn, I couldn't agree with either of you more. The two of you, and myself, join many who have had it to the brim with the transgender and their "internalized" this and "phobic" that every time we voice our opinions. All the while, as our once legitimacy is swallowed into the void of "transgender" spectrums and psuedointellectualism.

Slowly...hopefully, more of us are standing our ground and speaking out in spite of the shouting down we habitually endure every time we object to being included in a construct we never asked for, never wanted, and do not belong in.

I say, enough!

There are tens of thousands of posties out there one never hears utter a peep in the debate; I know, until recently I was one of them. It is assumed by some that we support the transgender in whatever quests it is that they may have, regardless of what the issue is/was...but I believe the vast majority of us don't. Perhaps when we go from a very silent majority to a most vocal majority who not only doesn't support their issues but actively OPPOSE them, we might be heard.

Though it won't be me, one day some of OUR group is going to begin appearing on the talk shows...and when that happens, the transgender will never be the same.

Sue and Susan, you might be interested in this blog entry I posted the other day.

I read it i thought it was GREAT!
Thank You for providing a clear and articulate essay on the issue at hand.

Thank you Susan It's time clearer heads reigned,

Take care

Thanks, Cathryn, I also read it. And, yes, it was great.

Sue, indeed, past time.

I just read Marti Abernathy's Post #76:

"You want to get technical Sue? In the strictest definition, you're not female. The distinction between the "sexes" is that a female has the ability to produce ova, and the male has the ability to produce produces sperm. Your "sex" isn't based on an organ but on your reproductive ability. For that matter, your neo-vagina isn't even an "organ." An organ is tissue or a group of tissues that constitute a morphologically and functionally distinct part of an organism. Your "vagina" isn't a social construct, it's a surgical construct. And an incomplete construct at that! Go find your bartholin glands...."

Geeeez...and SHE is supposed to be OUR advocate. I wonder if she had posted THAT in the St. Petersburg Times what the fall out would have been from the transgender community...probably nil, after all, she's transgendered.

No thanks!

It is really sad...
That when transgender folk are on the loosing end of a debate with a TS they always have to resort to that kind of Bigotry.
Not to mention that Marti is wrong this time...

It is the kind of remark that would get someone slapped if this conversation took place in 3D.

What is it with the obsession with anatomical.

Isabel’s corollary 1: Anatomical parts and pieces, on their own, are neither sufficient nor necessary characteristics in the determination of sex and/or gender.

A simple survey of the scientific literature shows without a doubt that there is no such thing as a perfectly binary definition of gender or sex. Our societal definitions of gender/sex as female and male are just constructs, useful as everyday indicators, but excessively often used as cages to restrict benefits/activities/rights/duties from one group and/or to keep individuals from belonging to a perceived “elite” group (read gender/sex). Below is a partial compendium of the incredibly varied and complex nature of human gender/sex. This is just what is presently known, and is in all probability just the tip of the iceberg, insofar as these are based mostly on parameters that scientists have been able to measure in one way or another, visually, or with the help of modern day instrumentation and technical advances. At present, acquisition of many of these parameters is limited by the inability to measure below picogram (and in many cases below microgram) levels many of the factors associated with gender/sexual dimorphism. Doubtless, there might exist many factors that are active at the sub-picogram levels of which we know nothing. Add to this the fact that almost nothing is known of what parameters affect the brain’s gender/sex dimorphism. It then becomes readily apparent that the only person that can conceivably know to what gender/sex they belong is her-/him-/it-self (just as happens with sexual preference). Likewise, the only person that can conceivably have ANY RIGHT to decide to what gender/sex they belong is that person her-/him-/it-self (again, just as happens with sexual preference).

46, XX people may have ovaries, testes, both ovaries and testes, neither ovaries nor testes, or organs that are a combination of both ovaries and testes (ovotestes). Again, they might or might not have ovaries. They might have one ovary, two ovaries, or more. They might or might not have fallopian tubes. They might have a fallopian tube, two, or more. They might or might not have a uterus. They might have a uterus or more than one. They might or might not have a cervix. They might have one or more than one cervix. They might or might not have a vagina. They might have one or more than one vagina. They may have testes or ovotestes. They may have labia or scrotal sacs, or something in between. They may have a clitoris or a penis, neither, or a structure in between. They might or might not menstruate. Upon puberty, breasts may or may not develop. They might or might not be able to become pregnant. They might or might not be able to give childbirth. They might be raised as either “females” or as “males”. Just about any combination of any of the above factors is possible.

46, XY people may have ovaries, testes, both ovaries and testes, neither ovaries nor testes, or organs that are a combination of both ovaries and testes (ovotestes). They might or might not have fallopian tubes. They might or might not have a uterus. They might or might not have a cervix. They might or might not have a vagina. They may have labia or scrotal sacs, or something in between. They may have a clitoris or a penis, neither, or a structure in between. They might or might not menstruate. Upon puberty, breasts may or may not develop. They might or might not be able to become pregnant. They might or might not be able to give childbirth. They might be raised as either “females” or as “males”. Just about any combination of any of the above factors is possible.

As for hormones, the overlap between the amounts present among the combined population is usually greater than the non-overlapping areas of the statistical end-points of said population. The same could be said for societal constraints, both in a geographic/cultural sense and from a historical perspective.

(By the way, scientifically speaking, 46 XXY people, Klinefelter patients are usually considered to be males)

References for most of the above comments (notable exception being Isabel’s corollary) available upon request. :)


BEAR said: "I look like a man, act like a man, carry a penis object, still have a vagina, can beat the crap out of a man or woman with my bare hands, and hate using public restrooms because people like Sue are trying to look at me thru the door crack."

Hi. You don't know me, but I am in love with you! :)


My simple question: Where would I go in one of these showers?

You would seek out the permission of the females who use that locker room. If you have their permission that would be fine if not then shower when you get home. Many females do that anyway.

Are you saying that, because of my gender identity, I can't go to any gyms that only have binary gendered showers? I find that to be a ridiculous restriction on my personal freedom.

No your gender identity has nothing to do with it.
what is between your legs has everything to do with it.

There's also the issue of accessibility. Even if I did identify as "HBS/TS pre-op" and eventually got my bits rearranged, my birth certificate would always bear my assigned birth gender and name, because I was born in Ohio. So I could never "just become a woman" like you apparently can. There are many others in my situation, as well as those that are unable to afford such expensive surgeries. Are we forever to be second-class citizens because we can't get our legal information set to the desired status?

Maybe those of you borne in Ohio should do what my foremothers did in California back in the late 70's and early 80's and quietly lobby for changes in the regulatory law that governs birth certificates. This doesn't take passing any laws it just takes educating people behind the scenes.

The distinctive characteristics that you claim separate objectively-identified "HBS/TS" people from "TG" people are only available to a select few that were lucky enough to have money and legal rights to attain them. And even after doing so, these things are largely ignored by the majority of society, who will continue to judge you solely on the way that you look. It seems like a useless distinction to me.
i should point out i live below the poverty line and i managed to pay for my GRS. Money usually isn't the problem people make it out to be.

You mentioned a few things that set TG and HBS/TS folk apart. you forgot one, HBS/TS people strive to live within mainstream society as it is. TG folk want to change it, some even want to tear down the differences between men and women.
This last part i have a beef with, I rejoice in the differences between men and women and enjoy those women's spaces in society.
It is for me being female and lesbian the life i should have been borne into. I celebrate it every minute of every day.

Take care


Nobody speaks of absolutes to do so would be silly.

Given that the examples you sight are less then five percent of the population of humans and Most Mammals. if it wasn't the case then there would be five or six boxes to check regarding one's sex.

What all of this is really about is getting along in mainstream society. I don't think anybody here would be truly happy living in a ghetto. (a homogeneous group of people who have chosen to segregate themselves from mainstream society)

Given that..

What this is really about is very simple and very clear cut....

Transsexual/HBS identified people are happy with the dog wagging the tail...

Transgender/genderqueer people would rather have the tail wag the dog.

Take care

as you are aware outing yourself is an occupational hazard that goes with being TG or Pre-Op. we have all been there and have had to deal with the outcome of outing one's self. Nobody transitions in a vacuum.

The doccumentation issue is a problem and one the federal government cannot solve, that is a state's rights issue The states get to define birth as an alterable or unalterable event.

Frankly, I think this is a bit arrogant on your part. I have several friends and lovers that are struggling to find ways to afford FOOD. I find it very unlikely that they are going to be able to afford SRS any time soon, despite the obvious emotional pain and frustration it causes them. The only thing that keeps them going is the fact that they have friends and lovers that support them in these times. Perhaps you are better off than you realize.

Perhaps you have a point, a little personal history for you then perhaps you might reconsider that statement...
I was borne blind and had only partial sight restored. I built an electronics carrier that was very good to me, i was able to pick where i wanted to work even with being paleo-transgender. all with vision that has never been any better then 20/200 corrected. in mid 93 u lost part of the sight, enough to make me damned glad i paid into a disability insurance policy. in 2002 i acquired a part time job i could do and saved money for surgery. Your friends can co it they can get roommates and share expenses... There is always a way people have worked two or three jobs for this. ... Most people are not willing to sacrifice enough enough often. well hon i ate a lot of rice and beans and didn't go out and party and didn't buy new cloths.. shopped a lot at thrift stores.

given my background i know it can be done.
it's not that much money I asved 15K went to Thailand (Dr Suporn) and came back with enough money to treat my best friend and i to a trip to Vegas.

So, by your definition, an "HBS/TS" person cannot be an activist of any sort? That precludes a person from working towards GLB rights, women's rights, minority rights, animal rights, environmentalism, educational causes, etc. That seems to be a very strange thing to connect to one's "gender identity." By your definition, if you want there to be more public libraries available to children, you are TG, not HBS/TS...

I am not saying that at all.
Many are woman's rights activists and activists of all flavors... you usually don't find them fighting for TG rights because they are usually not welcome, Most TG's look down their nose at TS/HBS folk.

Honey... those differences are largely constructs of society anyways. It's not so much tearing down as pointing out that they're not the only options.

actually no they are not.
I don't buy into Post Modern Deconstructionist dogma.

I have no problem with your desire to live your life the way you want, as long as it doesn't interfere with my life. To coin an old hippy saying since i am an old hippy...
Do your thing, but not on Me

Take care

Hi Joyce
answering your first question try asking them.Introduce yourself and put your best foot foward like it was a job interview.
If they say No then just shower at home. while you are at the health club be the best example of a human being you can, you may win them over.

Intolerance is how TG folk screw themselves over every time.

As a retired senior RF technician the last three jobs i had (from 1980-1994) my employers knew i was trans. Two of the three jobs i wore my regular female attire, the third was with a Motorola Service Station and they provided a uniform for everyone to ware. Nobody cared not even the vice president of the MSS i worked for whom i use to see in passing nearly every weekend.

Congratulations for your wherewithall and ability to creatively adapt to your situation. Not everyone has the same opportunities and abilities that you have. Many of my friends struggle with massive amounts of depress that impedes their ability to progress on any of this stuff. Others have to deal with a wealth of other issues that prevent them from even being able to hold down a job.

Your going to hate me for saying this but but i must....
When i was considerably younger i use to feel sorry for myself, you know Poor Little Blind Girl" and all that crap...
I didn't start getting anywhere and i didn't get past the depression until i stopped feeling sorry for myself and left the pity party.
Serously, I am not saying this to put down anybody, It's just true

One thing i have to acknowledge is employment right now is hard for everyone even white straight middle class men, and it is going to get worse over the next three years. This is an everyone problem... While i have some part time employment and a disability pension i can draw on, in this day and age where the cost of food has doubeled in the last 6 years even i am haveing trouble living more then just a basic existance. All any of us can do is the best we can....

I do not understand, then. What part of mainstream society are TGs apparently trying to change that makes them distinct from HBS/TS people? Clearly, it is okay to change some parts of society, but not others. So which parts are unacceptable to you?
well what about the Montgomery County, Maryland law this post is about it is unnecessarily broad for the average person. if you don't the backing of the average person there will be backlash even repeal of some anti-discrimination laws. a critical mistake in my own thinking is i took it for granted that most TG folk knew that their modification of existing anti-discrimination laws needed to be seen as reasonable in the eyes of the general public. Coed locker rooms are not going to happen for a while and that is how the general public sees this kind of law, because of it's broad wording.

Interesting. This is totally against my experience. Throughout my transition, I've come across hundreds of people involved in fighting for TG rights that were various sorts of cis-gendered rights activists. Additionally, I've never met a TG that looked down their nose at any other trans person for their transition. The only time I've seen them do that is when someone is attacking them.

I guess you have never met Monica Helms and Autumn Sandeen (whom i know in real life) both look down their nose at Post-transition females who assimilate into mainstream society Both have said as much. Sandeen as a matter of fact has said it to my face at one of my support group meetings.
I just consider the source...

There is some overlapping between the sexes in terms of social behavior and preferences....
Maybe ten percent that certainly doesn't give the genderqueer a license to tear down and rebulid society th their liking.

But you do have a problem with my desire to live my life. You are arguing in favor of denying me entrance to gyms, baths, etc. that have a "women's only" policy. You have indicated that all people with penises are men, in your eyes. You have made statements to suggest that I am transitioning for "superfluous" or "superficial" reasons.

I would have to ask how much of this IS really your life what maybe an hour out of a week. Do you know many natal females/males don't use the locker room.

what i see is a fight over a stregically unimportant peace of civil rights ground one which transfolk won't ever win.

Before you shoot the messenger take a good look around and maybe you will see the majority of the world is in disagreement with you. It's not even close to a civil rights issue Maybe we should resurrect Martin Luther King and ask him. Dr King had reasonable goals and expectations for his civil rights agenda. Thy the TG movement has largely ignored this aspect of MLK's dream and still held him up as their example shows the degree of cherry picking the TG movement will to to.

Something that should be remembered and goes completely over Monica Helms's head is
The End Does Not Justify The Means

If you believe that then you have to respect the anti abortion extremists for bombing abortion clinics, after all the end justifies the means, doesn't it?

What people like Halms and Sandeen refuse to see is if you want change you ahve to work with the majority to bring it about which means education On both sides of the fence....
it also means tolerance which when you read Helms's posts here you see she is sorely lacking in tolerances.

The only way transpeople will ever get anywhere is to choose leaders that are moderate and not extremists.

Take care

well Joyce

because in the eyes of the greater society (they make the rules not me so don't blame me)
that makes you male.

I might know better considering my girlfriend and many of my friends are Pre-Op but they get it and i never had to explain it to them.

Take care

it might be a good idea to try for a smaller Gym and get to know those people first. Then pop the question it's much easier after people know you.
I am not sure what your level of fulltime experience is Most don't deal with issues like this until they are at least a year full time and dealt with other social situations first.

I Know people who have had depression and still were able to deal with transition and full time living. I have a friend who i coached for three years who is TS and Agoraphobic (afraid to go out and be with others)She now works for a real estate company as an executive assistant and receptionist. Granted that is rather extreme and rather rare to find someone who is that strongly motivated to transition and overcome her issues.
The worst thing anybody can do is give up, that is the ultmate denial.

While there are no absolutes regarding differences between men and women save for one Birth Men can't carry a child and give birth and 95% of the women can. as far as men go no woman will ever know what it is like to give penetrative sex to anybody man or woman. a man will never know what it is like to have a period. A woman will never know what it is like to have an excess of sperm (blue balls)

There are a lot of things each of the sexes experience that the other will never know what it is like. Nearly all women will be able to nurse and remain sexually functional. Men that are pressed into service to nurse their children (through hormone therapy) seldom retain sexual function during that time.
Last but certainly not least, over 99% of both men and women have no idea what it is like to be borne transsexual and hat the genitals they were borne with.

It's like this law: If we're not going to let trans-women into female washrooms, then there should be provisions made to accomodate them! We have laws that require establishments to have handicap accessible washrooms. There should be similar laws giving protection to trans people of all sorts! In short, I think there should be a law that requires new construction projects to include a "single occupancy or otherwise gender-neutral facility" for whatever function is provided equally to "men" and "women."

this may not happen i am sorry to say because of the amount of resistance the general public would generate. what is likely to happen if such a law is passed is such places will close their locker rooms because of liability insurance issues. Rest rooms are not a problem almost everywhere in the us. One thing i might add not every rule in society is bent for handicapped people Blind people cannot drive, there are other examples of things other handicapped people cannot do like fly a plane if you have certain medical history.

I think my presentation makes me male or female in the eyes of greater society, and I pass just fine. So unless I whipped it out and showed it to people, they wouldn't have an issue.
then i suspect you shouldn't have a problem using the ladies room as long as you follow the customs that all women follow.

This is my position on these issues and they are well known here and elsewhere. being apprehensive about using the ladies room the first time is quite normal it is a little scary the first couple of times. I had to take my girlfriend by the hand and drag her in the very first time. She got over it quickly.

Take care

Child Birth and all that is related to it sets the differences between the sexes.
This is as big a difference as it gets.

As i have said before i don't believe in deconstructionism.
To me the fact that biology and society do recognize differences between the sexes is something to celebrate. I am not saying you have to agree with me and i would hope you are not saying i must agree with you because i have TS history.

What i find really interesting is the conflicted sense many TG/TS folk have.....
On the one hand they celebrate diversity
On the other hand they want to destroy the differences between the sexes.

It really doesn't make any sense to me.

Oh well I am just Old school.

Take care

Given the brevity of your response, I presume that you are tiring of this conversation. I am too. It seems we have reached some sort of impasse. Shall we end it, then?
actually no i am not tiring of this discussion. It always comes down the the same dead end for me.

I like and are comfortable with the two sex system that exists in modern society (the last 2500 years)
i fit into it just fine and have no issues with it.
why should i change something that has worked for me?

I was borne with a female brain I have a female body and XXY genetics If you can come up with a reason why i would want to change things please tell me.

If it aint broke why should i want to fix it?

Take care

This was post was really good I'm sorry I missed it until Alex linked it.

I admit I read nearly 90 of the 114 comments on this entry to date, but I had to skip a few of them, but I don't think this question/point has been made yet.

I'm kind of wondering whether anyone actually looked at the bill. I can't find the full text of Chapter 27 of the Montgomery County Code online, only the emended and amended sections via Waymon's original link.

Most of it is simply adding gender identity to the long list of protected identities, but there are two clauses that deal with bathrooms, locker rooms, etc, and it looks like they were added by amendment to the original amending bill, and then removed by (another?) amendment. I'm not sure whether those provisions are in the current law at all, regardless of their merit. I haven't heard anything about the actual process of the bill, so it's hard to tell.

This bill is what will make it possible for my roommate to feel comfortable to change his name and get a job, so I'm pretty psyched about it.

As an addendum to my previous comment, the text of the bill states:

"A person may not deny any person access to the equal use of any restroom, shower, dressing room, locker room, or similar facility associated with the gender identity that the person publicly or exclusively expresses or asserts."

The second instance of this language replaces "A person" with "An employer," and both instances appear to have been both added to and removed from the bill by amendment.

It's unclear to me how such language facilitates individuals taking advantage of the bill for the purpose of predation.

It is less restrictive than the trans-inclusive version of ENDA (which specifies that employers must recognize transitioning employees in their affirmed gender), but it still does not seem to be open-ended enough to allow mass subversions of the law by predators. Establishments who are either seriously worried about predators or who don't care about the comfort of transpeople and gender non-comforming people are still going to attempt to bar them from their facilities. Transpeople will have the law on their side when they sue or get someone to sue on their behalf, and most predators will find it's more trouble than it's worth. The predators with more perseverance would have targeted that situation or another anyway.