Filed By Sara Whitman | September 29, 2008 7:00 PM | comments
Filed in: Living, Politics
Tags: economic bailout, economic crisis, economic policy, government bailout, House of Representatives, Wall Street, Wall Street bailout
We want to know your opinion on this issue! While arguing about an opinion or idea is encouraged, personal attacks will not be tolerated. Please be respectful of others.
The editorial team will delete a comment that is off-topic, abusive, exceptionally incoherent, includes a slur or is soliciting and/or advertising. Repeated violations of the policy will result in revocation of your user account. Please keep in mind that this is our online home; ill-mannered house guests will be shown the door.
A continuing collapse of the stock market and the decreasing value of the dollar on the world money market due to inflation. Loss of jobs, Lots of praying to a god that isn't there from churches politicians. A loaf of bread $20.00. A drying up of money loans to businesses. Layoff of jobs, Violence in the streets. Crime increase. People arming themselves. Increased racisim. Survival of the fitess. Nuclear war in the Middle East aimed at Israel. Hell on earth.
You started out on the right track, but I don't think it will get as bad as riots and nuclear war. At least I hope not!
Dennis Kucinich has an idea for taxing stock transfers at 20-25% (among other steps) which would discourage rampant trading, encourage better diligence in choosing to make smart and stable investments, and force Wall Street to own up to their own problems. But it's all Greek to me. As a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, I'm sure the solution is taxing someone, though. (Kidding!)
We learn to live like pre industrial revolution Capitalist.Learn to hunt and grow our own vegetables and learn to do neat things like canning and making our own clothes.Hopefully after this is over we work on building a better America.
well, short term capital gains- which is what you refer to jere- used to be taxed at a higher rate.
I think it's a fabulous idea. I also think most people hold stock for long periods of time.
Um... I cannot make my own clothes. don't go there. as a lesbian, I'm already covered in flannel everyday.
Maybe, just maybe, the answer is... let the fuckers fail. it'll be hard for a while but then it will be over.
just a thought.
Geez and I thought wearing flannel made me a New Englander.Lol
Well, let's see:
The US manufactures very little
The US exports most of its tech jobs overseas now.
There is no money no build up new indstry to replace the steady stream of jobs that are leaving.
What happens now?
The US is following the script that led to the French Revolution to the letter.
In essence, the Republicans have just fired Necker when they turned down the bailout.
At the first sign of large scale disaffection, which ought to come just after the election if not before, Bush will use troops to quell dissent; he is already retraining an infantry division and arming them with tasers for this purpose, in violation of posse comitatas.
Then, all that has to happen is the speech of a new Camille Desmoulins from atop a table top at some American equivalent of the Palais Royal.
Maura there is way more Infantry Vets than one division who are not only armed but are armed with the knowledge to quell a presidential coup.Yes America is up the preverbial shits creek without a paddle but never underestimate American ingenuity or resolve.We've seen tough times before and if those who came before us could make it through them so can we.I believe at first we'll be in for a rude awakening but we'll learn to pull together and we'll be better for it.Fear mongering doesn't work anymore.
Oh, I agree amym.
Sorry I did not make the closing remark more clear..
You see, Desmoulins called from the table for Parisians to arm themselves to resist the troops sent in to quell the unrest
The Parisians sewpt through the street, finding guns and shot, but no powder. The powder had been transferred to a fortress for safekeeping.
The fortress was in the Faubourg St Antoine and was called the Bastille....
The Parisians got their powder, you see, and the Revolution was on..
And the United States credit crisis seems to be following the same course so far.
Necker has been fired to keep the perqs of the rich with the support of rural conservatives.
Louis has armed troops to quell Paris if need be...
It has all happened before, and it may all happen again..
America's ingenuity has been replaced by a dumbing down in society and one is considered elitist today with an education from Harvard, MIT or Stanford. McCain and Palin are prime examples of the dumbing down process, "lard make a wave". The best and brightest creative people leave the USA and work in foreign countries.
Or, now that the Republican conservatives have had their show to take back to their repugnant voters in their home districts we can revote...
ok, first? no starving. we have the ability to grow a lot more food than we are right now.
second, panic? hello? we're there.
and I think we're too lazy for revolution.
I think this means we win the election and I also means there will be no money for Obama's programs.
Obama will be screwed.
On the other hand, I cannot imagine anyone but a Democrat in this position. As a history buff, I look to FDR.
but the middle class will disappear.
I'm more optimistic and believe that not only will the middle class survive it will make a strong comeback.If Obama is elected and implements a policy to renegotiate nafta and rebuild American industry the first step will be taken.Step two is not only support alternative energy but also build the necessary infrastructure to deliver it as well as rebuild our other aging and failing infrastructures such as bridges highways etc.Step three take steps to equalize the playing field between American and foreign companies here in America such as in the automotive sector requiring companies like Honda and Toyota to unionize their American workforces and removing tax breaks from American companys shifting their workforces overseas.If these steps are taken lots of good paying jobs will be created for Americans but we'll have to be patient as they won't materialize overnight but as they come they'll provide longterm employment and descent wage and benefit packages.I don't support universal health because I believe in the past it was proven that industry could provide health care and even company paid retirement benefits and thrive it just takes providing the right enviroment for that to happen again.
I'm not optimistic. And while watching AC 360 on CNN tonight I learned that neither is Suzy Orman. Neither of us are alone.
Tomorrow Congress is on break for the Jewish holiday. In the interim lets just see how this news affects the financial markets around the world. My guess is that its not going to be pretty. I realize most people can't stomach this bailout, but I suspect the truth, as painful as it might be, is that some kind of bailout assistance is necessary.
And as for this idealism about growing our own vegetables, my father grew up on a farm and lived through the great depression. All I heard growing up were the horror stories of people losing everything -- homes and businesses, increased depression and suicide, not being able to afford a meal or a doctor visit let alone anything mental or dental. And the farm work was from four in the morning until after sunset and sometimes when a calf was being birthed it was well into the night. Quitting school because the crops needed tending and then havesting. My father scoffed at The Waltons because it was a Hollywood idealization of a horrible period of time for most Americans.
So please, lets tone down this idealistic idea that growing our own vegetables is going to get us through this one. After all, its Autumn. The harvest is almost over.
Ummmm - errrr... look, you do realise the interdependency of the world economy, don't you?
When the US sneezes, the world catches cold.
This 9% approval rating congress has just caused everyone, not just US voters, to lose confidence in it. Blue or Red makes no difference, when the chips were down and things were serious, no-one believed it and continued to play their own partisan political games.
The US stock market plunge was nothing compared to what's happening in Asia now. And what will happen in Europe in a few hours time.
It's not that *this* bailout plan isn't being implemented. It's that no-one outside the US has any faith in the judgment of the US congress any more. Yes, action now could easily save the situation, it's really not that bad. But no-one believes action will be taken in time now, and everyone's hunkering down. That means that what was a minor blaze is now out of control.
No Zoe, I wish they did, but they do not.
Steve, I agree about the hard work of the depression. none of us even remotely understand it.
but maybe... just maybe that's it. we've lost all sense of prudence. We've lost all sense of saving for a rainy day.
and I don't think it was ever a minor blaze, Zoe. I think this has been brewing since 2000... and now, yes, it is out of control.
funny, steve, my mother hated the walton's, too. but that was because she grew up a few hills away from the "real" walton mountain. She didn't think they were so wholesome.
Maybe now Congress can figure out a budget for next year. My R&R leave from Afghanistan is on hold right now because there's no budget for the next fiscal year (starting in a few days). Until they pass something, there's no money to pay for things like leave.
They can propose $700 billion to bail out some companies that should have known better in the first place but can't take care of its deployed personnel. Nice huh?
Sign of the times: Toaster salesmen are reportedly offering a free bank with every purchase.
Hooray, I am sooo Republican today. The cynic in me however believes that they will eventually pass some bloated garbage banker bailout legislation that will send us into a depression, but toady is a good day.
The bailout is a crock, an admission of the utter failure of the corporate rich and the politicians who service them to manage the economy. And it’s older than you might think.
Speaking about a similar bill before the Illinois Legislature in 1837 Lincoln said;
"It is an old maxim and a very sound one, that he that dances should always pay the fiddler. Now, sir, in the present case, if any gentlemen, whose money is a burden to them, choose to lead off a dance, I am decidedly opposed to the people's money being used to pay the fiddler...all this to settle a question in which the people have no interest, and about which they care nothing. These capitalists generally act harmoniously, and in concert, to fleece the people, and now, that they have got into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to appropriate the people's money to settle the quarrel."
The sum of $700 billion, which Bush’s Treasury Secretary Paulson pulled out of thin air trying to come up with a figure that would satisfy the greed of the corporate rich represents roughly 5% of our GDP. I say “our GDP" because as Lincoln also said:
Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital…”
That $700 billion, and the trillions involved in Fannie Mae, AIG and Freddie Mac, and the trillions spent on the genocide in the Middle East, and even piddling sums like the $25 billion Congress just voted to bailout GM, Ford and Chrysler are gifts to the rich. That money could pay for socialized medicine for decades, for scholarships for everyone, for decent housing and to fix all those levees and bridges.
But that won't happen; these enormous sums are going to be the straw that broke the camels back. Even with imposed austerity and an end to social programs the weight of that debt will crush the economy. The dominoes are all lined up. No one's quite sure when they'll fall but fall they will.
That’s why there’s such fear in DC of passing the bailout and the other programs. They’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t, and so are we. Neither the Congress nor the Treasury actually has $700 billion sitting around burning a hole in their collective pocket. They're counting on us to pay for it.
A better way to handle the financial crisis is to nationalize, without compensation, banks, insurance companies, mortgage companies and any financial or commercial institution that’s so badly mismanaged by the corporate rich that it can’t pay its debts. And of course we’d have to create democratically elected bodies of small farmers, working people and consumers to control those entities.
You can find the bailout bill and watch it’s mutations at www.theopenhouseproject.com Just remember to keep an air sickness bag handy as you read it.
* The Complete Works of Abraham Lincoln, vol. 5. Eds. John G. Nicolay and John Hay. New York: Francis D. Tandy Company, 1894.
Those comments were made during the 1837 bank runs before there was either federal or state bank regulation of any importance.
That's totally irrelevant information. Those comments were made by a radical populist opposed to the class warfare the rich routinely wage against working people and farmers.
Only the rich support the bailout because only the rich will benefit from it. Congress is composed of a group of politicians on both sides of the aisle who either are rich themselves, like Pelosi, or who entered politics to hustle a fortune, like Nixon, LBJ and the Clintons. They give the rich the legal weapons they need to engage in predatory practices against us. Both parties are owned by the rich.
The regulations that Ganshorn refers to were supposed to stop this sort of thing. The most stringent ones were passed after Wall Street caused the Great Depression. Carter supported laws to deregulate S&Ls and caused the S&L Crisis. Clinton killed the ones that regulated banking and finance when he championed a Republican sponsored measure to repeal them. It passed with an overwhelming bipartisan majority, just like DOMA, DADT and NAFTA and both Bush and Clintons war resolutions that led to the two American genocides in Iraq. There’s a pattern there somewhere…
I just don't know but it scares the hell out of me. I suspect that some form of the bill will be passed later this week but how much damage will be done by then I have no clue.
What worries me the most thought is that financial success is one of the more powerful factors in keeping certain countries from descending into violence (I'm thinking of China, if you haven't heard about this please see npr's pre-olympic series on China).
"A crap sandwich."
That accurate picture of the bailout is from Republican House Minority Leader John Boehner. He’s pissed because he knows his party is going down in flames but he hasn’t yet figured out that that’s exactly what’s in store for the winners too. Parties have died before in US history and both of the current parties are like wounded dinosaurs; they’re just too dumb to know they’re extinct.
It doesn't matter when or even if the bailout passes. The damage has already been done, Sam, and the economy is in a deep failure mode. It may take months or a year of two but we're facing the worst.
According to the US Treasury the national debt is exactly $9,889,199,531,449.08 (as of yesterday). That's almost $10 trillion dollars and it increased by about $700 billion dollars this year because of the US war to steal oil. By the end of the year it’ll be in the vicinity of $2.5 trillion dollars higher. The math is as simple as the consequences will be catastrophic.
Each year the Clinton/Bush genocide goes on costs about $500 billion dollars. This weekend the Congress loaned $25 billion dollars to Ford, GM and Chrysler, but the amount was almost too piddling to be noticed. Add an absolute minimum of $1 trillion dollars for the big bailout, another $1 trillion for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (with out of pocket losses adding about $200 billion dollars), and $85 billion dollars for AIG. Add substantial amounts for losses and for inflation and pretty soon you’re talking real money. (That’s a joke from a description of Germans carrying baskets of million Mark notes to buy a loaf of bread. Before the Deluge, A portrait of Berlin in the 1920’s Otto Freidreich, Harper Perrenial, 1995.)
For a year of two the left has used the term ‘looming economic crisis” but now we’ll have to stop; it’s here. The economy will be crushed under the weight of that debt. . The left will be organizing to compel the government to renounce the debt, immediately end the genocide, nationalize failed business without compensation under democratic control and use the money for social programs, to improve the infrastructure and begin a crash program to deal with the effects of the looming environmental crisis created by the unchecked degradation of programs like NAFTA and Bush’s withdrawal from the Kyoto Treaty.
I don't have any stocks, bonds or "securities." (I always wondered what made them so fucking secure anyhow if everyone is always freaked out about them!)
But I did notice on the news today that my bank's stock dropped by 50% over the bailout news. I drove four blocks and took out $1000 in cash and hid it. We don't have too much more in the account, but when I deposit Jerame's paycheck this week, I'll take about half of it out again from the account.
I know we'd be covered under the FDIC, but I don't want to take my chances that the ATM won't work when I need it to. I heard on CNN that some banks are having problems getting the cash to refill the machines. Fuck a bunch of that. If credit is becoming worthless, I want cold hard cash.
Go on Ebay and buy 1oz gold Buffalo coins with the cash if you intend on saving anthing and hide them. Only buy the graded ones though from PCGS or NGC and from a dealer with a large positive feedback. You can sell them later on Ebay should you need the cash. Gold value rises as a hedge in an uncertain world crises. Asia, India and the Middle East gold is always in demand. The U.S. Mint has run out of Bullalo's.
Bil, I'm curious to where the article is because I've heard there has been a shortage of cash but it was only hearsay.
Bill, you have some interesting points. The biggest, of course, for me is that history repeats itself. over and over and over again.
so, with that, I've come to think that 1. the banks should fail. they were poorly run. poorly run businesses should fail. 2. if there is any federal dollars, they should ONLY go to people with incomes under 250K a year. And there should be no middle man- govt to citizen. no bank.
We should march in the streets and demand this. demand to be treated like intelligent human beings who know when we're being screwed.
and not in a good way.